Sexual Harassment!

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derekjr replied on 11-05-2009 9:41 PM

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I agree on the Sweetie thing.  It is ok if I call my wife sweetie, but no one else should.  (Same goes for me.  She can call me sweetie, but no one else should... besides my mom maybe...)

I also agree on the filing a harrasment claim.  I would be tick off if it were me as a sexual harrasment claim is an attack on your very character....  i feel for you.  I was once told at a previous work place I had anger issues.  The entire place had a lot of fun with that as I hardly ever get angry.  It takes alot to get me mad.  A lot of stupidity happened there as well.  It is why I left the place. Economic times were better then, though.

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pretty ricky replied on 11-06-2009 11:10 AM

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Wow! Funny you say this 2 days after I go to sexua harassment training. No sooner do I walk down the open hallway to leave the building do I see a woman who has a calendar in clear view of all of a dude with his shirt off standing next to a motorcycle. All I can think is wow, ironic.  Anyway, hope it works out at your job. I had to deal with the same thing at Best Buy when I used to work there. Alot of my lady friends in the store would come give me hugs and apparently somebody was uncomfortable.   

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Aquaholik replied on 11-06-2009 11:39 AM

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I'm pretty sure it's not sexual harassment if both parties are participating willingly. At least that's what my lawyer keeps telling me.

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Kameleon replied on 11-06-2009 12:02 PM

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I'll admit I get a bit uncomfortable when I see people being all lovey-dovey with each other, though I think that simply might be because I'm jealous because I don't have someone to be all lovey-dovey with. Of course, I'd never be an @$$ about reporting someone for sexual harassment unless it clearly looks like one party would not want it. If it's consentual then it really shouldn't be up to someone to be calling someone out for it. Plus, I'm sure if it was a hug it wouldn't look sexual, unless one or both of you were naked.

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Kenny007 replied on 11-06-2009 12:07 PM

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Hex and others accounts are uplifting and I may consider challenging the notion.  It does make for a rather uncomfortable workplace now; for as a married couple we have no idea how to act.  The problem is, there's a few potential suspects, and I can't know for sure who it was.  It may have even been the HR lady herself...

My 'sweetie < boob grab' is true I'd say, as noted slightly above, whereas one could be an innocent mistake, another is pretty blatant.  I'm not suggesting that everyone be able to give everyone 'terms of endearment' but nor should someone else be able to take offense if an elderly saleman calls his support team (mainly women), 'hun' or 'sweetie' if it has been accepted, if not commonplace, for 30 years.  If someone doesn't like the term, then a simple 'My name is X' or other polite request to stop is all that's needed, NOT a 'OMG my panties are in a bunch I have been WRONGED!' attack towards HR.

That's the big problem with Sexual Harassment, something confirmed by the lawyer that did the training.  Anyone can take offense to just about anything at anytime...even if they appear to be supportive of an action.  An example would be an off color joke among friends, and another person strolls in.  All those expected to be there laugh, and the other person who strolls in sticks around to laugh it up as well.  Even with their involvement, and no direct objection to the comments, they could turn your ass in.  Stupid.  The fact that no 'working it out' effort is mandated before becoming all bent out of shape is ludicrous.  Granted, there are some casebook examples of harassment that cant go that route (repeated sexual advances by a boss or something), but for a passerby that's decided to be overly sensitive to something that doesn't pertain them?  It boggles my mind.

I wish I knew more about the ins and outs of the law, as I'd strongly consider going back to hugs just to test the waters.  Maybe even deduce who's the one so bored that they must twist this law up to report such nonsense.  If it could be fought, I love a good fight.  With a mortgage though, I have to pick my battles...

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zomgsofurious replied on 11-06-2009 12:07 PM

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My wife (fiance at the time) and myself were in college together and as part of our degree we do a year long "clinical rotation" at the hospital nearby.  After a few weeks the Department Chair called us into his office and said that "people were offended" about our PDA.  Considering all we would do in there is hold hands and give goodbye hugs, I know pretty well where you're coming from :/

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pretty ricky replied on 11-06-2009 12:28 PM

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Bottom line is this is ludicrous.  When we had the training they pointed out that we need to go by "the reasonable person standard".  It's not unreasonable for you to call your WIFE hun, sweetie, muffin, sunshine, whatever gross pet name you wanna call her.  It's not like you said HOT BUNS or something.  It's unreasonable for someone to tell you that you cannot have PDA within reason.  Did you put on the desk in your cubicle and dry hump you? I'm being facetious *spelling* of course.  It's sad how people act.  I think somebody's angry because they wanna do you or your wife (maybe both).

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I-Weapon-X replied on 11-06-2009 12:33 PM

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Kenny007:

My 'sweetie < boob grab'

the trick is to save the boob grab for when you're driving in the car and to honk the horn in unison

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cheeznrice replied on 11-06-2009 12:37 PM

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Kenny007:

I'm not suggesting that everyone be able to give everyone 'terms of endearment' but nor should someone else be able to take offense if an elderly saleman calls his support team (mainly women), 'hun' or 'sweetie' if it has been accepted, if not commonplace, for 30 years.  If someone doesn't like the term, then a simple 'My name is X' or other polite request to stop is all that's needed, NOT a 'OMG my panties are in a bunch I have been WRONGED!' attack towards HR.

Just because something was common place for 30 years doesn't make it right.  Does slavery or segregation ring a bell?  How long did that go on?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make sexual harassment appear as bad as slavery or segregation (because some will try to), but to say something has been happening for X number of years so it makes everything a okay is wrong.  See hexpane's numerous rants on questionable names for sports franchises.

Basically somebody can either tolerate said harassment or they can say something about it and be blackballed or become an outcast.  A real win, win situation there.

Where is all this sweetie < boob grab coming from?  Sexual harassment is sexual harassment, just like racism is racism and like hate language is hate language.

Soaring to new heights.

Kenny007:

'OMG my panties are in a bunch I have been WRONGED!' attack towards HR.

Perhaps HR should schedule another sexual harassment seminar for you.

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pretty ricky replied on 11-06-2009 12:41 PM

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Let's keep in mind that it's not a sexual harassment suit.  If somebody makes a report the company has to investigate it and bring it to your attention whether it is big or small.  Somebody went overboard though. 

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I-Weapon-X replied on 11-06-2009 12:41 PM

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cheeznrice:

and be blackballed

Racist Sexual Harasser!

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cheeznrice replied on 11-06-2009 12:44 PM

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pretty ricky:

Somebody went overboard though. 

In Kenny's situation I agree.  A simple aside with either him or his wife probably would have been a more appropriate way to go.

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Hexpane replied on 11-06-2009 1:00 PM

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Kenny007 how big is your company?  That can make a difference.  My company is 10s of thousands, and owned by a company that has 100s of thousands.

So it's all about records.  If HR has your claim on your record, YOU MUST HAVE IT ERASED as it was a bogus claim, otherwise they can hold it on your record and misuse it as a reason to terminate.

If you counter the claim, they can not fire you for arguing your side.

Whatever the lawyer who was there for the training said is nice, from his point of view.  Just remember that for every lawyer, there are 10 better lawyers with more experience.

IMO the key is getting and keeping your record clean... and get confirmation as in physically watch a document being shredded and electronic files being deleted AND a signed acknowledged paper etc...

Just be real calm and purposeful, it doesn't matter who made the claim actually, it has no basis and this idea that "anything can offend anyone" is corporate paranoia that really can not hold up in court.

Legally someone must prove they are a victim, and it impacted their work.  2 willing people hugging will be considered non sexual normal behaviour by 99% of judges and juries (if it ever went so far as a jury)

IN fact your work record can be completely cleaned and whoever made the complaint won't even know it happened.  Personally I would not let it slide as it's clearly unwarranted, and if left alone, over time it can be distorted later.

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Kenny007 replied on 11-06-2009 1:29 PM

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My particular branch of the company has around 400-500 employees, but we're in turn run by a multi-billion dollar corp, so IDK how much they're involved.

And the sweetie < boob grab quip comes from how the seminar was conveyed, that they're on identical footing, which, anyone with a hint of common sense would know that they're not even on the same ballfield, playing the same sport.  NO ONE considers groping appropriate, but a well intentioned, albeit potentially unwanted term of endearment could come from anyone, be it from their upbringing (common with the older salesmen amongst older support reps), their regional location (much of the South uses these quite loosely), etc, and isn't going to scar anyone over a single incident.  A simple request to stop would be more than sufficient for a 'sweetie' claim, whereas with a boob grab, the fellow has already gone too far.

The problem here is that a well intentioned law is being exploited by the overly sensitive, or the bored.  I'm inclined to think the latter.

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Kenny007 replied on 11-06-2009 1:32 PM

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pretty ricky:

Let's keep in mind that it's not a sexual harassment suit.  If somebody makes a report the company has to investigate it and bring it to your attention whether it is big or small.  Somebody went overboard though. 

This is pretty much it though.  Most of the employees view it as such and no one really intended to change anything; the company was built on that closeness and the company was merely covering it's modern day ass.  However, SOMEONE was empowered by it obviously.  Those I mentioned it to here are appalled that anyone actually had the gall to bring such a claim to HR now, so now those people are back into that 'day after the seminar' nervousness...lol.

If the company does nothing, even for ridiculous complaints like the one against me, they become liable.

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