Athletes getting the H1N1 vaccine before the public.

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battlechaser replied on 11-05-2009 1:34 PM

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i say let the athletes get it first:

let them be the lab rats so when something goes wrong (short term/long term effects) maybe all the roid using overpaid idiots will die off and leave the planet a better place 

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acsguitar replied on 11-05-2009 1:36 PM

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I do think that people are paranoid about the Flu shots.

As an IT guy I see people relate two things ALL the time. Hey you gave me a new mouse and my printer jammed! Why did the mouse make my printer jam!!! or Hey I got this email from you and then my computer crashed why did you crash my computer!?!!?

I'm not saying reactions aren't possible but they are rare.

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kane182 replied on 11-05-2009 2:10 PM

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acsguitar:

I do think that people are paranoid about the Flu shots.

As an IT guy I see people relate two things ALL the time. Hey you gave me a new mouse and my printer jammed! Why did the mouse make my printer jam!!! or Hey I got this email from you and then my computer crashed why did you crash my computer!?!!?

I'm not saying reactions aren't possible but they are rare.

I agree they are extremely rare, but I think many more people are more paranoid about the flu in general than those cautious about getting the shot.

If anything it makes the more cautious folks informed, rather than following everyone else to the clinic for their shots.

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Kenny007 replied on 11-05-2009 3:56 PM

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acsguitar:

I do think that people are paranoid about the Flu shots.

As an IT guy I see people relate two things ALL the time. Hey you gave me a new mouse and my printer jammed! Why did the mouse make my printer jam!!! or Hey I got this email from you and then my computer crashed why did you crash my computer!?!!?

I'm not saying reactions aren't possible but they are rare.

Quite true, but a mouse to printer problem is like getting a flu shot and then having your cat die.

Vaccinations have been suspect for some time.  All I know is the only time I got one I got sick.  As a fellow who seldom gets sick, I found it a little fishy.

...like sea bass fishy.

Join the Goozex Pokerstars Club!

GreenManGaming

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Chambered replied on 11-05-2009 4:20 PM

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taintedzodiac:

My grandfather had two strokes, each exactly 7 days after getting the only two flu shots he had ever received in his life. Other than that he was perfectly healthy.

Flu shots have been shown to reduce the risk of both heart attacks and strokes. Not saying it's impossible for a flu shot to cause a stroke. Though it would be more accurate to say that not getting the flu reduces your chances of having a heart attack or stroke. A flu can lead to an inflammation of your arteries which will increase your chance of having a heart attack or stroke. The flu shot should protect you from the flu and thus reduce the chance of that happening.

Without more information to go off of, I find it highly unlikely that the flu shot lead to his strokes directly.  A stroke is the result of a disturbance in the blood supply to the brain. Commonly they are a result of a blood clot or other blockage making its way to the brain and becoming lodged, or by a drop in blood pressure do to some kind of trauma in another part of the body.

Strokes don't just happen, there's pretty much always an underlying cause such as a poor diet or health standards leading to things like hypertension, obesity, high cholesterol, etc. I'm sure it's possible that his flu shot could have triggered something in his body that lead to a stroke at that moment, but it would be incorrect to say that it caused his stroke (yes, I know you didn't say that, but it was implied). The stroke was already there, just waiting to happen.

G-Nitro:

Not to mention, flu shots are never FDA approved. Why? because every year a new vaccine is given out and it would take too long for the FDA to approve them. 

No..

The four manufacturers will make the Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent vaccines using the established manufacturing processes for their seasonal influenza vaccines.  FDA approved these vaccines as a strain change to each manufacturer’s seasonal influenza vaccine.  There is considerable experience with seasonal influenza vaccine development and production and influenza vaccines produced by this technology have a long and successful track record of safety and effectiveness in the United States.  The Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent vaccines will undergo the usual testing and lot release procedures that are in place for seasonal influenza vaccines.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/Post-MarketActivities/LotReleases/ucm181956.htm

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taintedzodiac replied on 11-05-2009 4:36 PM

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Chambered:

taintedzodiac:

My grandfather had two strokes, each exactly 7 days after getting the only two flu shots he had ever received in his life. Other than that he was perfectly healthy.

Flu shots have been shown to reduce the risk of both heart attacks and strokes. Not saying it's impossible for a flu shot to cause a stroke. Though it would be more accurate to say that not getting the flu reduces your chances of having a heart attack or stroke. A flu can lead to an inflammation of your arteries which will increase your chance of having a heart attack or stroke. The flu shot should protect you from the flu and thus reduce the chance of that happening.

Without more information to go off of, I find it highly unlikely that the flu shot lead to his strokes directly.  A stroke is the result of a disturbance in the blood supply to the brain. Commonly they are a result of a blood clot or other blockage making its way to the brain and becoming lodged, or by a drop in blood pressure do to some kind of trauma in another part of the body.

Strokes don't just happen, there's pretty much always an underlying cause such as a poor diet or health standards leading to things like hypertension, obesity, high cholesterol, etc. I'm sure it's possible that his flu shot could have triggered something in his body that lead to a stroke at that moment, but it would be incorrect to say that it caused his stroke (yes, I know you didn't say that, but it was implied). The stroke was already there, just waiting to happen.

Regardless of the reasons, the evidence that was there would cause any man of science to hypothesize that the shots were a catalyst at best and the cause at worst. This has happened in enough people that my grandfather was contacted to participate in a study that aimed to pinpoint why a select handful of people suddenly suffered strokes shortly after the first time they obtained a flu shot. Sadly he died before the study began.

Regardless, the point was that the ignorant statement that the flu shot is 100% safe is not true.

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killmak replied on 11-05-2009 4:55 PM

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Kenny007:

acsguitar:

I do think that people are paranoid about the Flu shots.

As an IT guy I see people relate two things ALL the time. Hey you gave me a new mouse and my printer jammed! Why did the mouse make my printer jam!!! or Hey I got this email from you and then my computer crashed why did you crash my computer!?!!?

I'm not saying reactions aren't possible but they are rare.

Quite true, but a mouse to printer problem is like getting a flu shot and then having your cat die.

Vaccinations have been suspect for some time.  All I know is the only time I got one I got sick.  As a fellow who seldom gets sick, I found it a little fishy.

...like sea bass fishy.

Speaking of printers and such when my ipod is plugged in my computer wont turn on, most likely because my computer recongnizes it as a boot device and I am too lazy to fix it.  Also whenever the printer on my moms computer is plugged in it will not turn on.

As for what one of the other posters said about all athletes being on roids Hockey players are usually not roid raging idiots like say football and baseball players.

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acsguitar replied on 11-05-2009 4:59 PM

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killmak:

Kenny007:

acsguitar:

I do think that people are paranoid about the Flu shots.

As an IT guy I see people relate two things ALL the time. Hey you gave me a new mouse and my printer jammed! Why did the mouse make my printer jam!!! or Hey I got this email from you and then my computer crashed why did you crash my computer!?!!?

I'm not saying reactions aren't possible but they are rare.

Quite true, but a mouse to printer problem is like getting a flu shot and then having your cat die.

Vaccinations have been suspect for some time.  All I know is the only time I got one I got sick.  As a fellow who seldom gets sick, I found it a little fishy.

...like sea bass fishy.

Speaking of printers and such when my ipod is plugged in my computer wont turn on, most likely because my computer recongnizes it as a boot device and I am too lazy to fix it.  Also whenever the printer on my moms computer is plugged in it will not turn on.

As for what one of the other posters said about all athletes being on roids Hockey players are usually not roid raging idiots like say football and baseball players.

Either because it thinks it's a boot device (it would turn on and then not boot though!) or because the USB power is confused or overpowered or something.

Anyways my wife, her boss, and my other friend all got sick from this years flu shot.

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killmak replied on 11-05-2009 5:04 PM

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acsguitar:

Either because it thinks it's a boot device (it would turn on and then not boot though!) or because the USB power is confused or overpowered or something.

 

Anyways my wife, her boss, and my other friend all got sick from this years flu shot.

Probably thinks it is a boot device but not my computer so I dont care, I have a wireless printer and it is amazing :).  As for getting sick from the flu shot, if you get sick right after recieving the flu shot it is because you were already sick when you got the shot.  With how many people get the flu shot there are going to be some cases of people getting sick after getting the shot due to them already being sick but not yet showing symptoms.

For vaccines I am all for all the childhood vaccines but I really dont see a reason to get a flu one.  Nobody in my family have health problems so there is no reason to go out and get vacinated for the flu.  If it was a vaccine for avian flu on the other hand I would be all over it since that one is going to be a killer if it ever spreads from human to human easily.

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Con818 replied on 11-05-2009 11:53 PM

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killmak:

 ....the Flames are taking a lot of heat.... 

haha

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eaglefan replied on 11-06-2009 6:44 AM

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killmak:

I wonder why people are going so crazy about getting the vaccine.  From what I have heard H1N1 is barely worse than the seasonal flu and most people dont worry about getting that vaccine.

You would think that until you get it, it is WAY WORSE!!! than the seasonal flu.

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cheeznrice replied on 11-06-2009 7:43 AM

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Heard on the radio this morning that some Leafs and Raptors players got preferential treatment and got the H1N1 shot.  Some health minister/official or something was pissed given Ontario's dwindling supply.  Perhaps said minister/official should have estimated a the demand a bit better.

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SnazzyDog replied on 11-06-2009 11:26 AM

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psyck0:

You're a stupid paranoid idiot. Vaccinations almost never kill people- instead, idiots like you assume they do because someone has a heart attack 2 weeks after getting the shot, when really they had a heart attack because they were obese. Vaccinations SAVE lives. I bet you believe they cause autism, too, despite the fact that the researcher who said that has now been proven to have faked his data and lied.

• flu shots contain Thimerosol which is approx. 48% ethyl mercury, the 2nd most toxic substance on the planet next only to plutonium
• they are said to contain "safe dosages" but that is based on an adult male, and not an infant or small child
• all children under the age of 8 (IIRC) need to receive two shots within 21 days
• the H1N1 vaccines in Canada all contain Thimerosol
• some (all?) H1N1 vaccines are administered from multi-dose vials so the actual concentration of Thimerosol given to an individual may be stronger than the recommended dosage
• Thimerosol itself is a highly controversial additive and was banned for use with livestock a decade before the ban come to MMR shots administered to children, something which took an act of Congress.

You refer to Dr. Wakefield's controversial work that attempted to draw a connection between the mercury contained in MMR and flu shots and the onset of autism.  His work was debunked int he popular press by a Swedish team of researchers - what gets left out of that story is the inconvenient fact that these Swedish researchers were employed by a large pharmaceutical company. You'll never guess what vaccines they produce among others...

I think you should get a shot for rabies

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Chambered replied on 11-06-2009 1:30 PM

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SnazzyDog:

flu shots contain Thimerosol which is approx. 48% ethyl mercury, the 2nd most toxic substance on the planet next only to plutonium

Well that's certainly more than a little misleading.

Point 1:  True, Thiomersal is in most flu shots and yes, it is made up of about 48% of ethyl mercury. Also true that mercury is highly toxic (I somewhat doubt that it's the 2nd most toxic substance on Earth, though).

However, you can get more mercury from eating some fish than you will from a flu shot. Additionally, the type of mercury in the flu shot is ethyl mercury. The type of mercury in fish is methyl mercury. The main concern with mercury poisoning doesn't really come from concerns about sudden exposure to mercury. The fear of mercury poisoning comes from what's called bioaccumulation. Over time, mercury builds up in your body until it reaches a toxic level.

This is because methyl mercury stays in the body for nearly 2 months. This means it takes roughly two months for your body to expel the mercury from a tuna fish sandwhich you just ate. So if you eat a lot of fish, it will slowly build up in your system.

The main difference between the methyl mercury found in fish and the ethyl mercury used in the flu shot is that ethyl mercury is expelled from your body in under two weeks.

SnazzyDog:

they are said to contain "safe dosages" but that is based on an adult male, and not an infant or small child

Point 2: "Safe dosages" refer to the amount of mercury in a system per cubic kg of mass. Children have a level of about 3 µg (micrograms)/kg per week (depending on the standard you're using. This is the World Health Org's safety level). And the safe dosage is set far below the minimum amount that is recognized as causing concern for mercury poisoning (over 7 µg /kg/week).

According to the FDA the recommended age for flu vaccination is 3 years old. On average, a 3 year old is going to weigh 40-50 pounds, about 15-20kg. Which means they're allowed to intake about (3*15, 3*20) 45 - 60 micrograms.

Also, there are thiomersal-free vaccinations that are recommended for children 6 months and up.

SnazzyDog:

all children under the age of 8 (IIRC) need to receive two shots within 21 days

Point 3: A single flu shot contains 25 micrograms of ethyl mercury. So both shots combined (in the 3 week period) are a total of 50 micrograms of mercury, well within guidelines for safe levels.

Also, from what I've read the recommendation is no sooner than about 21 days (28 at the source I read). Not within 21 days. It's no sooner than. To give the ethyl mercury time to clear out of the system.

SnazzyDog:

the H1N1 vaccines in Canada all contain Thimerosol

Point 4: Most multi-dose flu shots will contain it. Thiomersal is a preservative to make sure bacteria doesn't grow in the vaccine once it has been opened. It isn't required, and isn't commonly used (in the USA) in other vaccinations, but it did make vaccinations safer when it was in use. That's not to say they aren't safe now, but they've found other ways around those problems.

SnazzyDog:

some (all?) H1N1 vaccines are administered from multi-dose vials so the actual concentration of Thimerosol given to an individual may be stronger than the recommended dosage

Point 5: Why? The thiomersal is part of the vaccine. It doesn't clump up like oil and water, it's mixed in as part of the entire dose. Barring human error, the amount of thiomersal from one dose to the next is the same, if the dosage amount is the same.

SnazzyDog:

Thimerosol itself is a highly controversial additive and was banned for use with livestock a decade before the ban come to MMR shots administered to children, something which took an act of Congress.

Point 6:  It was removed from vaccines purely as a precautionary measure. I haven't heard anything about it taking an act of congress. No repeated study has yet found that thiomersal causes any kind of negative side effects due to mercury poisoning. One study did show that in vitro mice with auto immune deficiencies did react negatively to thiomersal exposure, but the results of that study couldn't be replicated in a follow-up study.

It's only controversial because someone pointed out that the number of vaccinated children increased over the past 20 years. And that the number of children diagnosed with autism also increased over the past 20 years. Correlation is not causation. By the same token, the number of motor vehicles, the uses of plastics, and the national debt have also all increased over that same 20 year period.

The Swedish study of Dr. Andrew Wakefield's report linking MMR vaccines to autism was not the only one done. There have been many over the past years following that 1998 report.

The following scientific and medical entities reject the notion of a link between autism and vaccinations:

 American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Medical Toxicology, the Canadian Paediatric Society, the National Academy of Sciences, the Food and Drug Administration, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the World Health Organization, the Public Health Agency of Canada, and the European Medicines Agency.

But of course, they're all in the pockets of the Pharm Corps.

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SnazzyDog replied on 11-06-2009 2:31 PM

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I don't usually thank people for disagreeing with something I write, but your reply was helpful and provided some balance to my points.  That said, you are minimizing the causal relationship between rising rates of autism and the usage of heavy metals in vaccinations.  This is a much deeper topic than you appear willing to recognize. 

In 1997, the FDA was mandated by Congress to investigate the use of mercury-containing preservatives in childhood vaccines.  By mid-1999, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) had discovered that children could be exposed to an amount of mercury from vaccines that exceeded 1 of 3 existing federal safety thresholds.

I could go on, but won't.  I try not to be overly reactive to the various news sources out there, but at the same time I have little confidence in the word of any of the major medical associations.  I won't go ahead and say the Pharm Corps have bought everyone out, but there is little doubt that they are way too involved in policy making.  I also won't point out the obvious fact that they are benefitting enormously from the panic generated around this H1N1 'crisis'...