Racism

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Risingred replied on 06-16-2009 11:01 AM

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taintedzodiac:

Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

Honestly I find that a little vague and misguided. Over-complex.

It isn't always "race" that produces that kind of thought process, but moreso (especially in Asia) it's a cultural thing. The Chinese and Japanese in particular will tell you with a straight face, matter-of-fact that they are superior to others because their culture is "perfect".

This thread could be wholly devoted to trying to define "racism" and it could go on for fifty pages and go nowhere. It is most always a rather tangential conversation at best.

But we can all agree that BBQ is tasty.

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RockMuncher replied on 06-16-2009 11:06 AM

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Edit: Above post: ^^

I agree pretty much entirely... but the idea of racism and the discussion of race vs culture and so on is important, if only to kick around the ideas and get people thinking. I come from a *very* mixed family... I think the only major races we *don't* have by blood or marriage are Chinese and Australian.... so we do a lot of discussing of race and culture and the expectations and stereotypes of both.

The Big O:

Stereotypes are physical and behavorial traits given to different races. Some stereotypes are on the dot accurate, but people dont want to admit them or they just deny it because they think people will look at them differently if they do so they just give the model answer

I think you're confusing racial characteristics with cultural trends, which themselves are never entirely accurate either. Basically... if you live in a set location (and a lot of locations have one racial majority, but not all) with a given set of values for that location you tend to, as a collective group take on some of those characteristics. Cultural trends change over time, and people who move away from the culture and raise kids, then grandkids in different cultures take on the trends of the new culture.

There's also sub-culture characteristics... basically if an isolated minority is rejected by the mainstream, they turn inward and create their own culture and feel... again, nothing to do with race, thats just human nature.

The Big O:

Stereotypes are given for a reason most of the time. Constant evidence towards different races supports most stereotypes

I've never... ever seen a racial stereotype bear out over time....either personally or historically, because the stereotypes change along with the cultures they're stereotyping (you actually have to search for the older stereotypes if you're trying to study them... they tend to disappear from collective conciousness and only show up in media and old exploration documents). If you work and live in a very mixed community, you'll notice this more.

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misschiefmaker replied on 06-16-2009 11:21 AM

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I'm hungry

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Risingred replied on 06-16-2009 11:32 AM

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misschiefmaker:

I'm hungry

No kidding, eh? I was saving my t-bones for the weekend but I think I'll have them tonight. 

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cody9119 replied on 06-16-2009 1:06 PM

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Kenny007:

 

While I personally agree with you, but see where catastrophic was coming from in her defense, what really irks me (and I hear about this often since I now live in CT) is her reverse racism decision in New Haven, CT. 

Long story short.  A bunch of white firemen studied hard for a test that governed promotion eligibility, and did really well.  Their minority counterparts however, did poorly, very poorly.  Why they did, IDK.  As a result, a great number of white firefighters were eligible, a bunch of minorities weren't.  The test was obviously bias right? ??  /sarcasm.

New Haven decided to throw the test out, in fear that the minority firefighters would throw a hissy fit/lawsuit concerning their failures, and promoted no one.  Guess what happened though?  The white firefighters were obviously pissed, and sued instead.  Initially, they sided with the whites, saying cut that crap out and promote people.  Losers appealed, making it to this 'fine' lady's desk, who eventually overturned the ordeal, siding with the minorities.  Now it's going to the supreme court, where this lady might unfortunately be heading.  Ridiculous.

I read a well versed article from another latino fellow that suggested she was picked because of her race, not her credentials.  While her qualifications due number, she may just have been the best LATINO judge, not the best judge overall.  Well played Obama, well played.

 

....but I thought this thread was about BBQs.

I agree with you Kenny, I believe that she was picked not because she was the best judge, but because she was the best judge that happened to be a hispanic and a woman.  I think that is ridiculous.

It is the land of the free BECAUSE of the brave. Support our troops.

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Hexpane replied on 06-16-2009 2:59 PM

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Kenny007:

cody9119:

You guys want to see a racist just look at Obama's pick for the Supreme Court--Sonja Sotomayor.

 

"I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life."  --Sonja Sotomayor

 

So my question is, why can't a white male grow up poor and have a hard childhood?  And what does being a "Latina woman" have to do with being wise.  Racism isn't the problem any more, it is reverse racism and stuff like affirmative action that is more worrisome.

“I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life.”

While I personally agree with you, but see where catastrophic was coming from in her defense, what really irks me (and I hear about this often since I now live in CT) is her reverse racism decision in New Haven, CT. 

Long story short.  A bunch of white firemen studied hard for a test that governed promotion eligibility, and did really well.  Their minority counterparts however, did poorly, very poorly.  Why they did, IDK.  As a result, a great number of white firefighters were eligible, a bunch of minorities weren't.  The test was obviously bias right? ??  /sarcasm.

New Haven decided to throw the test out, in fear that the minority firefighters would throw a hissy fit/lawsuit concerning their failures, and promoted no one.  Guess what happened though?  The white firefighters were obviously pissed, and sued instead.  Initially, they sided with the whites, saying cut that crap out and promote people.  Losers appealed, making it to this 'fine' lady's desk, who eventually overturned the ordeal, siding with the minorities.  Now it's going to the supreme court, where this lady might unfortunately be heading.  Ridiculous.

I read a well versed article from another latino fellow that suggested she was picked because of her race, not her credentials.  While her qualifications due number, she may just have been the best LATINO judge, not the best judge overall.  Well played Obama, well played.

 

....but I thought this thread was about BBQs.

Wow here we go with the reverse raciism stuff.  First of all, there is no such thing as "reverse" racism.   It's yet another political consultant term fabricated for the vernacular of the Rush Limbaugh crowd.

Racism is by definition the RACE IN POWER unfairly favoring their own race over other races.  There is no reverse of it  It does not move in any direction.  It has impacted every culture in history, and it can never be "reversed"

Affirmative action laws are simply laws attempting to give races that have been historically and unconstitutionally descriminitated against some type of reparations. Of course these laws are flawed and annoying to many people.

However white people seemed to cry a lot less when there were separate water fountaints and schools.  It took HUNDREDS OF YEARS for white people to act on a legacy of illegal and unconstitutional racism.  Now that reparations are attempted, suddenly it's anti constitutional and "racist".

Affirmative Action is not intended to be fair and color blind.  The entire point is to throw a bone to cultures thave have been enslaved, pursecuted, and robbed of their history, legacy, $$$ etc...  Slaves built the white house  FOR NOTHING.  They died and had their children stolen from them, were raped, fed scraps, never tought to read and DENIED FUNDAMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS for HUNDREDS OF YEARS.  

A few firefighter jobs or a couple of college scholarships thrown as a bone will not make up for that loss.  Anyone who is that upset about the STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT results of Affirmative Action laws needs to stop watching Fox News so much and focus instead of the real problems of society, crime, out of control capitalism, religious zealotry, education, public safety, political corruption.

AA laws are meaningless in the big picture.  They do not make up for the injustice of centuries, they barely have any measurable impact on society.  They are simply a talking point for radical right wing talking heads like LImbaugh and Fox News.

In fact Obama is hardly interested in AA discussions at all.  While he is not coming through on his list of promises, his supreme court nomination is not even in the top 100 things to be concerned with if you are really worried about the future of this nation.

The fact that change has NOT come to america, and we are doing the same bank bailout policy that Bush and McAin both supported is shocking in that how much american citizens are laying down and accepting it.

There is a very good article in Harpers about how Obaman is becoming more and more like Hoover than any other president.  A very smart guy elected on the idea of radical change needed, only instead he delivered middle of the road, incremental small tiny changes that had to be fully backed by everyone before they went live.

The economy of america needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.  We lost our core of manufacturing and labor strength when the unions were busted and labled as "bad for everyone" by greedy corporate higher ups and lobbyists.  MFG moved to other countries and our economy shifted the most #$$$ to the fewest individuals in any time in history.

Our "production" that was lost in manufacturing was "replaced" with the finance sector.  Real estate speculation, stock trading, insurance became our dominate production.  The return on investment soared to record heights for these industries.  However that was all debunked recently as we are witnessing and the realization that it was all FUTURES trading on FUTURES inlfating the returns.

Non sustainable returns were simply the result of wild gambling and hiding the bets.   Once the "bets" were exposed, we had the epic failure of the finance sector.   People had their heads in the sand for decades, blindly accepting that a fair wage for manufacturing is somehow "communist" and watching billionaires pop up and become celebreties convinced everyone that they too could become a rich famous mogul if they bought into this "every man for himself" "you can make it if you try" system.

However anyone who studies capitalism realizes that it is impossible.  Everyone can never be rich.  The system only works if the MINORITY hold MOST of the money.  The workers will back the system if they believe they have a chance to be at the top.   However they must ignore the hard facts that if they are at the top, they need 1million others at the bottom.  

Yes anyone can be at the top, but ONLY if 1million other "anyones" are stuck at the bottom.

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kevlar51 replied on 06-16-2009 3:09 PM

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It's a good thing "the bottom" is relative.

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Kenny007 replied on 06-16-2009 3:15 PM

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I'm all for equality, but affirmative action is a load of crock, and actual reparations (financial) along with it.

If someone fits the bill, they shouldn't be denied a service or position just because enough minorities couldn't cut it, and just hand the position to someone else to fill a quota.  If they [minorities] want the position, earn it.  Likewise for whites.  I've met plenty of capable people that fit in minority classes whilst in the armed service, college, and in the workforce that earned their keep and position, and my respect along with it. 

Just because your ancestors got the bad end of the stick due to some close minded ancestors of mine doesn't mean that you deserve a leg up, or I a reprimand.  Let's not forget that the slave trade was helped along by warring tribes, so they can get off their high horse of innocence now.

If those firefighters bust their ass to get promoted, promote them, be they black, white, or purple.  If the other groups don't want to excel, don't punish those that do.  This free ride mindset has got to go, as it is in fact just as bad as before, but with the shoe being on the other foot now.  Equality for all is AOK by me, but this 'woe is me' crap is ridiculous.  Plenty of minorities have succeeded before and now, plenty others are just being lazy and unjustly whiny concerning events gone by, doubly irritating coming from those that haven't been personally affected by the trials their own ancestors faced.

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Risingred replied on 06-16-2009 3:20 PM

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Hexpane:

 

Racism is by definition the RACE IN POWER unfairly favoring their own race over other races.

No it isn't. Unless this is some semantically-challenged "political" definition of racism.

However white people seemed to cry a lot less when there were separate water fountaints and schools.  It took HUNDREDS OF YEARS for white people to act on a legacy of illegal and unconstitutional racism.  Now that reparations are attempted, suddenly it's anti constitutional and "racist".

It wasn't  unlawful. There were no laws against it. Was it right? The law is not about right and wrong.

However, seeing as how I'm descended from a strong irish bloodline, I am going to ask every Englishman to give me ten quid to make up for the pain and hardship that my ancestors went through while under their rule as slaves. I don't know any of their names but it's a fair assumption that, since some family I had somewhere was irish, that I deserve money.

Affirmative Action is not intended to be fair and color blind.  The entire point is to throw a bone to cultures thave have been enslaved, pursecuted, and robbed of their history, legacy, $$ etc...  Slaves built the white house  FOR NOTHING.  They died and had their children stolen from them, were raped, fed scraps, never tought to read and DENIED FUNDAMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS for HUNDREDS OF YEARS.  

By the English, French, and Spanish, yes. I fail to see the relevance to that in today's America. This is what I don't understand.

A few firefighter jobs or a couple of college scholarships thrown as a bone will not make up for that loss.  Anyone who is that upset about the STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT results of Affirmative Action laws needs to stop watching Fox News so much and focus instead of the real problems of society, crime, out of control capitalism, religious zealotry, education, public safety, political corruption.

AA laws are meaningless in the big picture.  They do not make up for the injustice of centuries, they barely have any measurable impact on society.  They are simply a talking point for radical right wing talking heads like LImbaugh and Fox News.

And here is where we are mostly in agreement, besides the "fox news" thing. You act like this is a one-sided ploy. It isn't. It's just a bit of stupid white guilt that was very poorly conveyed.

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Hexpane replied on 06-16-2009 3:20 PM

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kevlar51:

It's a good thing "the bottom" is relative.

Well what is the bottom in the USA?  Is it the guy in the cube working for an insurance company making $40k with a $250K mortgage?

Or is it the single mom working at wal-mart making $17k per year and $1,100 month rent?

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Kenny007 replied on 06-16-2009 3:23 PM

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Hexpane:

kevlar51:

It's a good thing "the bottom" is relative.

Well what is the bottom in the USA?  Is it the guy in the cube working for an insurance company making $40k with a $250K mortgage?

Or is it the single mom working at wal-mart making $17k per year and $1,100 month rent?

lol I used to live on my own at roughly 17k a year....that mom better start looking for a more affordable apartment, there's no way she can float that one.

And if the bottom is 40k....I need a raise...lol.

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Risingred replied on 06-16-2009 3:25 PM

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Kenny007:

 Plenty of minorities have succeeded before and now, plenty others are just being lazy and unjustly whiny concerning events gone by, doubly irritating coming from those that haven't been personally affected by the trials their own ancestors faced.

No kidding.

I'm reminded of a fantastic feminist poet. Her name is Wendy Rose.

She's a Native American anthropologist who spear-heads (no pun intended, sorry) a campaign detailing the fact that Native Americans are not extinct. Instead of asking for money or jobs or whatever, she's asking for the remains of her ancestors so they can be buried.

See, now that is effective. It changed the way I think about a couple things and allowed me to see something outside of my own cultural bubble.

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kevlar51 replied on 06-16-2009 3:28 PM

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Hexpane:

kevlar51:

It's a good thing "the bottom" is relative.

Well what is the bottom in the USA?  Is it the guy in the cube working for an insurance company making $40k with a $250K mortgage?

Or is it the single mom working at wal-mart making $17k per year and $1,100 month rent?

Why are you going to limit it to America? I'm sure the single mom will take her lot any day over the kid who just starved to death in Darfur.

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kevlar51 replied on 06-16-2009 3:32 PM

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Out of curiosity Hexpane, what would make you happy?

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Hexpane replied on 06-16-2009 3:32 PM

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Kenny007:

Just because your ancestors got the bad end of the stick due to some close minded ancestors of mine doesn't mean that you deserve a leg up, or I a reprimand.  Let's not forget that the slave trade was helped along by warring tribes, so they can get off their high horse of innocence now.

 doubly irritating coming from those that haven't been personally affected by the trials their own ancestors faced.

I don't know if that happened or not, but just so you know... I am white...

How is it that you can prove that minorities today are not suffering from hundreds of years of legalized unconstitutional racism and slavery?  There are thousands of statistics showing otherwise in terms of net financial worth, land ownership, etc...  The disparity of wealth and education by race is very real and quite measurable.  To ignore that tie to the history of races in the USA is to ignore factual history.

------------

"Equality for all" does not exist, and has never existed.  It's a nice idea but total fantasy.  If someone is born in a bad neighborhood with poor public schools, how is that child "equal" to a child born of wealthy parents with access to elite private schools from day 1?  Regardless of race, are those children equal?

No, they have equal rights under the law, but they do not have equal opportunities.   In fact the situation that blocks them from having equal opportunities is one of the main problems in this country (education)

The USA constitution demands that all have the same opportunities to persue life, liberty and happiness.  But our legal and economic systems are currently preventing that.

Again your hang up on AA is such a small item and has no real effect on our legal or economic systems.  The few cases of firefighters or police not getting accepted or passed over, that makes headlines.

But what is the point of 10 or so firefighters in one town fighting for their right of "equality" when 300 others of all races are laid off in another town because of the economic policies of the government?

Fox News LOVES the fact that people are still hung up on gay marriage and affirmitave action.  It distracts from the true injustices that are embraced by the ownership of Fox News, Newscorp etc... The illegal de factor corporate conglomerates controlling our government through good old boy networks and lobbyists.

They want you to be upset about AA and take it up as a cause.  If people argued about AA and gay marriage for the next 10 years, no one would be happier than Fox News ownership.

The reality is, both are minor insignificant issues that have no real impact on 99.99% of the population.  There has never been "equality for all" and repealing AA would do noting to insure it.